First firing

[mart]

I've been a mill forman for around 4 years and today i fired my first worker. I was so angry with this lad that i believe he left me no choice. For a month this stacker has been turning up late for work with feeble excuses like the alarm doesn't always work or he had a headache, toothache or he was stuck in traffic which i know is a lie. Because i drive the same route and he just lives a couple miles further down. The best one was that he had to drive his partner to work so it was her fault that he was late according to him. He also had 13 days off without phoning in once to say why he couldn't come in and when he turned up the next day all he'd say was that he was ill. As usual he came in today 45 minutes late just saying he got up late. So that was it i told him to turn around and go, your fired. I just got angry the way he casually walked in as though nothing was wrong. I had already had words with him on several occasions and warning him that if his time keeping doesn't improve he's fired . I don't think he took me for my word. I can't have stackers casually turning up whenever they feel like it. I'd value any opinions as to whether i did the right thing. I believe i had no choice even though i never wished to have to fire anyone.

[ugo]

Good one Mart !
I think the most logical thing that the world of work must be done about cleaning workers indolent.

I imagine my anger against my work of people crazy !!!!!!!!

[captnjack]

Cut and dry Mart you had no choice. You gave him warning of the consequence yet he persisted in being late.

[laranger]

When you accept a job it comes with expectations and you need to do that. He didn't preform up to snuff so I don't see where you had any other means to get it done. Replace him with someone who wants to work, cause he sure didn't want to work.

I spent 30 years working at just 1 job. Not many people can say that anymore.

Good call on your part Mark, I would have done it sooner than you did tho.

[Anoree]

I myself get to work pretty late, violating our time supposed to be at work, but see to it that the work is done. I stay late in the evenings and come in on the weekends, if necessary. My boss never complained.
If I do come early (on time for others) I usually get home late, anyway.

I don't see you could have done something else. You warned him repeatedly, and still he didn't come on time.
He didn't leave you a chance of anything but to fire him. It’s his fault only.

[eastbill]

my working in human resources..i have had to do that myself. but as much as i dont like it, when they leave you no choice you have to do it for the betterment of the company and the morale of the other workers. tough to do a good job when someone next to you misses all the time and is late, yet gets paid as you do. i see you had no choice there, an unfortunate part of the job. in the same boat i suspended someone today, as a warning of whats to come.

[Texasdrake]

You done the right thing.You gave the guy every chance to turn things around,but he choose not to.I had worked with a guy who was pretty much the same way.He would come in late 30-45 mins alot of the time and take 2 hr lunches..which both affect me cause my luch is set up at the same time he normally arrives at on If he's on time and my shift ends when he comes back from his "normal" 1 hr lunch. So I go to lunch late and end up with overtime waiting for him to get back from his 2 hr lunches.I had complain on a number of times to my manager and in due time both him and our dept head both gets on my *** for complaining.Reason was due to us being really short handed and no one seems to want apply for the job openings..the slacker had them over a barrel and knew he wouldn't get fired which would really leave them short handed..the worst thing was I was over the slacker and in due time they promoted him over me to a manager's postion..I wanted to tell the Dept head to go F**K herself cause that was the second time they pass me over for a promotion...in due time the slacker go fired when the Dept was retooled and downsize and we were both moved to the security Dept.The security mangers seen what he was and didn't take his slacking off for a min..

[tigger]

You did the right thing. Dont lose any sleep over it!

[geolarson2]

I'm, pretty liberal, open-minded, and can accept a lot, but it sounds to me like the fellow you fired really needed a good kick in the buttocks. You gave him more than enough time, and it sounds like you spoke with him more than even I would have. Why should you or any other worker have to pick up the slack for someone who is clearly lazy?

[mart]

Thanks for your comments lads. You've all made me feel i did do the right thing although by the sound of it i should have done it sooner. I just felt annoyed with myself at not being able to avoid firing him. But he really was bugging me with his laziness and i cannot stand lazy people. I won't be losing any sleep over it either.

I glad your slacker eventually got fired Texasdrake. He sounds like a right sneaky bastard and cocky with it. At least he got his comeuppance.

[geolarson2]

Originally Posted by mart

Thanks for your comments lads. You've all made me feel i did do the right thing although by the sound of it i should have done it sooner. I just felt annoyed with myself at not being able to avoid firing him. But he really was bugging me with his laziness and i cannot stand lazy people. I won't be losing any sleep over it either.

I glad your slacker eventually got fired Texasdrake. He sounds like a right sneaky bastard and cocky with it. At least he got his comeuppance.

For what its worth, Mart, it speaks highly of your character to have given this guy as much leeway as you did. Better to have given an extra chance or two to shape up and fulfill him responsibilities, than to have just chucked him in the bin without a second thought. Like I said, it goes well to your character, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and cut off a dead limb to save the body.

[laranger]

Mart, if it is any concolation to you, they get easier to do now that you have that first one behind you, good luck, now go have a beer.

[danielle_ftv]

I definitely think you did the right thing. Every job that I've had I put 110% of my effort into it. I hate being late and personally I think it's incredibly disrespectful to everyone since they have to pick up your slack normally (or at least that's what I always ended up having to do when co-workers were late).

[615]

Originally Posted by mart

He also had 13 days off without phoning in once to say why he couldn't come in...

13 days?! 13!? Where I'm at, on your second no call/no show you're on a final warning. Once you hit your third you're termed.

This guy was on the mother of all gravy trains. I don't reckon you've ever had a consultant visit your workplace?

Anyway, people get themselves termed by their own actions or lack thereof. Rest easy.

[Texasdrake]

Yeah getting away with 13 days of no phoning in.Don't think there is any company in the USA that would let that go.Unless you work in the family business can't see you getting away with it.My company for the most part would drop you like a hot potato within a few days of your no phoning in.

[ugo]

These things do not happen in my work. There is too much cunning. Here's because has my anger.
There's a lot of complacency to have arrogance and laziness.
If in my work it was more clean and perfect, I would be happy.
That's why I suffer of insults and wickedness.
Mart has done well. It must be strong to dismiss people arrogant and without real reasons why.

[mart]

We do operate the three warning rule but this one was down to me. As work has been slow this month i figured i'd give him time to buck his ideas up which was a waste of time. I know now i was too lenient of him and i have now learnt that was a mistake on my part. So in future it will be the three warning rule.

No we've never had any work consultant visiting the works 615

[mart]

Originally Posted by laranger

Mart, if it is any concolation to you, they get easier to do now that you have that first one behind you, good luck, now go have a beer.

Your right Laranger firings do get easier, had quite day today, one of the labourers has never got on with one of the machinists. Occasionally hurling abuse at each for about a month now. I've tried to get to the bottom of their dislike for each other but with no success and i had warned them both if it goes any further there will be firings. Today i'm outside the mill tallying a set of timber, when i hear a lot of swearing and turn around to find it had come to a head with these two lads and i see the machinist on the ground being punched by the labourer, with no one even attempting to pull off the labourer. So i dash in and grab the labourer around the neck then pulling him and throwing him over the crosscutter bed, which i now was stupid he could had been badly hurt if he had landed badly, but luckly he just sustained a cut to his elbow, guess i was too heavy handed. My temper nearly got the better of me, unfortunately i have a very short fuse and find stopping fights hard to deal with. Anyway i checked the machinist who luckly just had a bloody nose and feeling a little dazed and i got him to go and get checked by the first aider. Then i confronted the labourer and ask him what happened, of cause i got no answer, so i told to him to leave as he doesn't work here anymore and i now have to write a report for head office, which i'll have to hand in on monday. I feel i did my best at trying to get these two lads apart. I do tend to think it was my fault somehow at not keeping a better eye on them. No doubt you guys won't agree with that. Still feel annoyed at todays mess-up.

[captnjack]

You can only do so much Mart.

[rlf01]

Originally Posted by mart

Your right Laranger firings do get easier, had quite day today, one of the labourers has never got on with one of the machinists. Occasionally hurling abuse at each for about a month now. I've tried to get to the bottom of their dislike for each other but with no success and i had warned them both if it goes any further there will be firings. Today i'm outside the mill tallying a set of timber, when i hear a lot of swearing and turn around to find it had come to a head with these two lads and i see the machinist on the ground being punched by the labourer, with no one even attempting to pull off the labourer. So i dash in and grab the labourer around the neck then pulling him and throwing him over the crosscutter bed, which i now was stupid he could had been badly hurt if he had landed badly, but luckly he just sustained a cut to his elbow, guess i was too heavy handed. My temper nearly got the better of me, unfortunately i have a very short fuse and find stopping fights hard to deal with. Anyway i checked the machinist who luckly just had a bloody nose and feeling a little dazed and i got him to go and get checked by the first aider. Then i confronted the labourer and ask him what happened, of cause i got no answer, so i told to him to leave as he doesn't work here anymore and i now have to write a report for head office, which i'll have to hand in on monday. I feel i did my best at trying to get these two lads apart. I do tend to think it was my fault somehow at not keeping a better eye on them. No doubt you guys won't agree with that. Still feel annoyed at todays mess-up.

I have worked in environments where a fight such as the one described would get both individuals fired. You just can't have miscreants like that in the work place. It affects everyone, as you have found. You made the right choice. Now go have a pint or two and let it go. Cricket anyone?

[laranger]

Mart; Sounds like you had a bad day. One thing concerns me though, why didn't the Machinest also get fired? It's not like the laborer was fighting with himself, yet he was the only one who got dismissed.

[mart]

Originally Posted by laranger

Mart; Sounds like you had a bad day. One thing concerns me though, why didn't the Machinest also get fired? It's not like the laborer was fighting with himself, yet he was the only one who got dismissed.

Sorry i should have pointed out, that the person who throws the first punch is instantly fired. Because it is assumed that person would have instigated the fight, it an old firm policy and the machinist will get a written warning. I know that policy of first punch isn't always gonna be right, the firm has always stuck with that rule and it is written in our contracts. So everyone knows that rule. In a way my decision was easy, as in the other lads did tell me the labourer did throw the first punch. Don't ask me how that rule would work if there were no witnesses, because i really wouldn't know how it would stand. I have always thought any fights and both people should be fired and i have mentioned this to my boss in the past, but he instists this rule will stay.

[Anoree]

Originally Posted by laranger

Mart; Sounds like you had a bad day. One thing concerns me though, why didn't the Machinest also get fired? It's not like the laborer was fighting with himself, yet he was the only one who got dismissed.

I wasn't there, and I might read mart's story wrong, but for me that sounded as if the machinist was the laborer's victim. Should a victim also be punished for a fight? I don't think so. Sometimes it takes only one to start the fight and the other one can't avoid it.

An employee beating up another one already lying on the ground has to be fired immediately, I think. Even more so if he has been warned and doesn't give any explanation. He might also face legal consequences.
If it turns out the other one was provoking the fight, he can still be fired later on.

[laranger]

That is an asinine rule. It completely favors the person who taunts. I am much like you in that when I was younger, my fuse was very short also. Many times all it took was an insult and Bam, I threw that first punch. Now that I am a bit older I step back and try nutralize the situation.

[mart]

It is a difficult decision to make, like you suggest Anoree as in it may have been the other way around and that the machinist may have goaded the fight. I guess that's why the firm has the first punch rule. It's the easy way out for them, whether it's right or wrong. But i do know this rule goes back to the 50's and i guess it was very different in them days. Has anyone here ever heard of the first punch rule?. I have worked for some builders firms in the 80's who had this rule in force.

[Anoree]

Originally Posted by laranger

That is an asinine rule. It completely favors the person who taunts. I am much like you in that when I was younger, my fuse was very short also. Many times all it took was an insult and Bam, I threw that first punch. Now that I am a bit older I step back and try nutralize the situation.

It penalizes the one going physical, agreed, but I think that's bearable. I think NO taunting justifies starting a physical fight.

I think even when you were young, you stopped fighting when the oponent went down, didn't you?

[Anoree]

Originally Posted by mart

It is a difficult decision to make, like you suggest Anoree as in it may have been the other way around and that the machinist may have goaded the fight. I guess that's why the firm has the first punch rule. It's the easy way out for them, whether it's right or wrong. But i do know this rule goes back to the 50's and i guess it was very different in them days. Has anyone here ever heard of the first punch rule?. I have worked for some builders firms in the 80's who had this rule in force.

I don't think I know it by that name, but whoever starts a (physical) fight in the company bails himself out of job.

The building industry, as well as wood work and probably a few other brances where hard muscle work is requested, tends to be rougher than the average office job. That spreads to the language used and might lead to "loose fists".
Even more so in the 50's, up to the 80's, when much more had to be done by hand. Rules to keep the workers in order (and the company working) had to be set.

[Enigma]

Mart,

Just to say I understand why you did what you did, but as you live in the UK and have employment law's to follow, I hope he dose not try to get you up on wrongful dismissal, I'm not saying you was wrong in doing what you did, if it was me I would have done the same.

The thing is you have to sit down do and investigation in to what he was doing, ask if you could help him in any way, the following disaplinary pros, you would have to then give him a writen or final written for it, any verbal waning will not count, so it had to be writen, then a follow up if you get a writen you can go to dissmisal, or a final you can got to dissmisal, again you have to follow the work act 1974, or you could end up getting fired your self for grosse missconduct or fined if you are the CEO for wrongful dismissal.

I hope the fool dosen't do anything like this as this kind of person need to be fired, but please watch your self as this may come back on you. I am coming to this from what i have read and you may have done every thing right, but I just thought I would let you know

[Anoree]

Originally Posted by enigma2

Just to say I understand why you did what you did, but as you live in the UK and have employment law's to follow, I hope he dose not try to get you up on wrongful dismissal, I'm not saying you was wrong in doing what you did, if it was me I would have done the same.

I think we've got the toughest labour laws here in Germany.
Even here we have a couple of reasons which justify an immediate firing of a person. Stealing company property is one, starting a fight another one, sexual harassment a third.

If the employee fells he was wrongfully dismissed, he can allways go to laybour court.

[TheDoctor]

Originally Posted by Anoree

It penalizes the one going physical, agreed, but I think that's bearable. I think NO taunting justifies starting a physical fight.

I think even when you were young, you stopped fighting when the oponent went down, didn't you?

"To stupid words, deaf ears". Anybody who is stupid enough to overlook the fistfight rule deserves to be immediately sent home. Well done. The company is not supposed to stand such behaviour.
For what is worth, a suggestion: the bickering employees can delay their brawl to after business hours; they are all adults, for cryin' out loud. Even schoolkids can figure that out -in my time, I kind of made a motto out of that "auxiliary rule" in order to beat/scare bullies into getting off my back. Got rid of the bullies at the cost of nearly all of my friends... wanna think I actually kept the real ones, I mean, the kind of friends one can call "brother".

[mart]

Thanks for the words Enigma2, TheDoctor. I do remember in my younger days on site work. Any differences were settled outside work, like you say TheDoctor. But you will always get them who can't hold it back til then. In the 80's it was quite common for fights to break out from time to time, mainly because there was all this macho **** around, like i'm faster than you, i'm stronger than you, or just plain bullying. Unfortunately i had quite a few fights, but managed to keep them outside working hours. I would say it was almost accepted by companies as long as it was dealt with outside the company. Workers were then ten a penny, so most sites had no problem in finding replacements, but of cause today with 2.5 million unemployed in this country, i guess that labour is now regretting his behaviour, i handed in my report of the incident to head office and i'm not expecting any come-backs, because as far as i'm concerned it's over and done with, because i did what i thought was right. I'm not going to argue with the first punch rule with head office because i know the answer.